1. There is a definite correlation of CCSVI and MS. When tested with venography (the gold standard) there are problems found in the veins of 90-100% of all MS patients.
When tested by doppler alone, the number falls to 65% in all MS patients, although PPMS patients show higher correlation in the BNAC study
2. Both Dr. Zamboni and Dr. Zivadinov believe that MS patients who are not responding to their current medicines, or are progressing rapidly, deserve to have a "compassionate treatment"--meaning, they should be treated outside of a clinical trial by an appropriate caregiver--meaning, an interventional radiologist or vascular surgeon.
Dr. Zivadinov believes we need to separate the research side of CCSVI studies (which need to be scientifically rigorous and double blind studies) with PATIENTS' RIGHTS...meaning, if you have a venous problem now, you have the right to get it treated by a vascular doctor.
3. Both Dr. Zs would like patients to stay at home, bring the research to their local caregivers for possible treatment. They recommend staying on the DMDs patients are on.
4. The fibrin cuff is a marker of venous hypertension. It is also found in the lesions in MS brains. Iron deposition encircles the veins of MS patients...this is also found in chronic venous disease. There is a large correlation between venous disease found in other parts of the body, and venous disease in the MS brain. Dr. Zamboni invites the doctors to study this.
Also, the change in cerebrospinal fluid levels in MS brains and how that relates to venous congestion is a HUGE new area of research.
5. The neurologists and NMSS know that we are watching, and that we understand what is at stake. Dr. Zivadinov calls it the "elephant in the room." It is because of all of you, that they know they cannot sweep this research into the corner--as they did with Dr. Schelling 30 years ago. This is out there, and we understand it.
Here are the notes:
Points made by Dr. Zamboni-
1. BNAC's numbers are different because they did not use gold standard venography-
2. CCSVI is a truncular venous malformation, as determined by vascular specialists across the globe, published research
3. MRV does not see azygos vein, why venography is essential
4. doppler is good, non-invasive test
5. Please refer to published science
Dr. Z is going over all of his papers...the numbers as verified by his research.
-a genetics study will be released and published next month-showing correlation between CCSVI and MS locus
We have established a strong connection of CCSVI and MS with research and data...now talking about iron depsiton and chronic venous disease and how this initiates the immune system. He invites experts to study this. The fibrin cuff encircles the vein, the marker of venous hypertension
Reduction of CSF flow suggests less reabsorption due to increased venous pressure in the brain. The CSF flow is modified, it is the mirror of MS disease, majority of data comes from CSF flow examination. CSF flow dynamics are changed by CCSVI. Complement cascade is reactivated, overloads the CNS. NEW SPECTACULAR FINDING! Needs more research by neuroimmunologists...invites colleagues to investigate
Zivadinov is up...the elephant in the room...there is ENORMOUS attention in the work...this brings millions of people together, not just a handful of scientists. THis is new, because of this attention, we must put MORE attention on this.
The tension is high because of the urgency in this research. What is usually ethical might be in conflict with patients' rights...we need to balance this.
THis is important for the community of MS -Work on CCSVI must continue under scientific and public scrutiny. CCSVI expands our understanding of MS. THis might not be applicable to all MS patients. We need blinded, traditional studies. Diagnosis and treatment should be provided by care givers and studies by researchers should be separated.
CTEVD study was blinded 64% of MS patients showing def. CCSVI...using ultrasound doppler and some MRV to establish prevalence. No venography
500 subjects tested thru 12/09. Phase 2 needs funding. Data coming...
primary progressive 70%,, SPMS 70% RRMS 64% CCSVI
We need ethical oversight...IRB approvals may not be sufficient. Wants to create a monitoring task force. He believes there is no risk in testing and treating, but invites oversight. He questions open-label treatment without IRB. Need transparency of funding. We need to begin putting together scientists to discuss this, thanks AAN
Zivadinov continues: Intraluminal ultrasounds, new technology- venograpahy is still gold standard. From patient case reports and rigorous studies, we need to use MRI and clinical outcomes in blinded control fashion to show if treatment modifies. We can't ignore symptom relief--we care about the quality of life in treatments. Most dream again, sleep again, less fatigue, headache...this was unexpected. But clearly, science will further confirm.
Dr. Common- IRV speaks on venous procedures-has not performed any CCSVI intervention, but is familiar with treatments. Many patients have contacted him. He has followed the research. (My question is, why did they get him to speak, and not someone who has studied this????)
Veins are redundant...blood can still flow around blockage. Stenoses caused by trauma, tumor, sheer stress in high flow states..
MRV is time consuming and expensive, not ideal for small vessels. Dye damages kidneys, radiation is dangerous....venography is invasive, wire insertion...dangerous...dye, perforation with wire... risks of venous intervention is small, safer the arterial system. Veins show large amount of recoil, which is why stenosis can occur. Stent-hold elastic structure open, need anti-coagulation therapy, risk of bleeding. Stents expensive, risk of migration
Are there benefits to treating? Benefit relating to CNS plaques? Recommends only a clinical trial setting with experienced radiologists and neurologists work together.
Questions: Wayne State Dr. Lisak- head of neurology (begins questioning rather aggressively by making a speech, not asking a question- this doctor also co-authored the Annals of Neurology hit piece on CCSVI)
You are incorrect, Dr. Zamboni...red blood cell escavation is not a hallmark of MS lesions- Your pathology doesn't match MS. Iron is normal in aging. There is a disconnect with your research and MS pathology. This is my comment, not a question.
Dr. Zamboni: (a bit ticked off, rightly so)
Your comment may permit YOU to explain to me...what is the origin of fibrin in the blood? Venous hypertension as in pulminary hypertension creates the hallmark fibrin cuffs. The iron in MS brains is found around the veins, in a circular pattern...very, very different than the location of iron in the brains of other neurological diseases!!
CCSVI in Multiple Sclerosis Avis Favaro- can you give us results in lay-person language?
Zivadinov- SWI study...attempt to look at correlation at amount of iron in structures of brain--iron does store in other diseases and normal people. I would like to understand the venous structure and neurodegenerative disease. Iron builds in different structures of the brain...there are certain pathways where iron is building in MS...in thalamus and around venous area of pulvinar nucleus of thalamus, thanks to new technology. We need to understand this buildup with disability in MS.
Dr. Miller-
This is highly technical information...iron deposition is giving us lots to explore. There are many explanations for this (for you in the audience) cause and effect...iron may be a consequence of disease process...
Johanna on Facebook-
Is this a possible cure? Stay on our drugs?
Dr. Miller- no reason to get off drugs. Procedure only in controlled trial. No reason to discontinue DMDs.
Zivadinov- No reason for patients to stop therapy. DMDs have advantages until something else is determined.
Zamboni- I agree completely. Continue and wait for new evidence. Concern regarding ...
Kelley Crew CBC
What do you say to traveling patients?
Zivadinov- do not do it until we know this is helpful.
We do not have data to prove this is useful. We need efficacy studies. BUT we should respect patients' needs and rights. The caregivers must decided this with patients. It is outside the researchers' realm.
Cheryl from New York-
Anything outside of surgery to help veins?
Dr. Cooke -interventional procedure is all I am aware of to help venous narrowings. The interventions are not difficult, but we recommend a follow-up with a neurologist.
CBC radio-
Placebo affect as high as 50% for this?
Dr. Miller- High placebo response in almost any subjective symptoms...we can't measure fatigue- these tend to be the most responsive to any new treatment. Placebo response is lower in neuro changes, strength, spasms. MRI is a sensitive measure of therapy. We need properly controlled trial...you need a sham control.
Kim online-
Are there certain symptoms we may have with CCSVI?
Zivadinov-we are testing vitamin D, smoking, in gathering our research in risk to MS. Symptoms are relevent...certain symptoms may affect certain blockage...as in optic neuritis and jugular vein connection. These are "regional pathways" which show a connection
Clinical Neurology News-
How many patients are undergoing outside research studies? Where?
Dr. Miller- We don't have any idea. Among the MS community there is interest, there is no registry yet.
Dr. Zivadinov- important point. We recommend doctors get IRB approved and connect with team researchers.
Dr. Zamboni we are preparing a registry, a good tool. We reduce malpractice risk.
Don from US-
How many trials or tests until this in mainstream in US?
Dr. Miller- NMSS is reviewing research applications. Hard to say when the answer will come
Medscape Neurology-
Did Dr. Dake...WSJ story cause you to rethink?
Dr. Cooke- I've spoken to Dr. Dake regarding his 35 interventions, his complications, migration and blood thinning. He was asked to stop...not sure what grounds. Don't know why he stopped. Dr. Zamboni states we should not use stents.
Dr. Zamboni- stent may give the opportunity to keep veins open
Extending time...due to interest
Wheelchair Kamikazee asks a question-
What about things we know about MS that CCSVI does not seem to explain: women, EBV
Dr. Zivadinov. Excellent point. Key points of our study. Venous disease in general female 2;1 ration, jugular size smaller in women, EBV link is being studied.
press: how do you account for healthy people with CCSVI?
Dr. Zivadinov- I want to understand how this affects other neurological diseases. Our healthy controls included hashimotos, APS and FAMILIAL healthy controls (FINALLY he says this...These are NOT really healthy controls. Children of MS patients may show CCSVI)
Maybe if you are living in Buffalo, you do not get enough vitamin D, or if you're smoking, we want to learn more...
Dr. Miller- why is there so much discrepancy between Dr. Zivadinov and Dr. Zamboni? What is the implication? We need more controlled date from other centers.
Edward online-
What can MS community do to accelerate CCSVI research-
Dr. Miller-MS research communites and societies are actively involved and engaged. You need to get involved in pushing for more research $$$ Appropriate amounts of money need to be raised.
7000 questions were sent to them....sorry they couldn't get to it all. The session will be posted on NMSS shortly, with an official transcript.
Source: http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=385357152210&comments